I caught this on Saturday but only got around to resonding to Jordan's post tonight. But it's not enough! Discussion continues on the comments. There will, of course, be spoilers.
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Salem's Lot 1979 and Salem's Lot 2024
Happy Halloween everybody! Julie's working late and the boy doesn't have school tomorrow so he's heading to one of those crazy f...
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(2007) * First of all let me say that as far as I could tell there are absolutely no dead teenagers in this entire film. Every year just ...
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Talking both about this flick and the upcoming Amazing Spider-Man, I've been gabbing a lot about how the movies should take their cues from the Ultimate Marvel Universe, the more adult-oriented version of the Marvel Universe that was started in 2000.
And they did! The Ultimates had
1. An African-American Nick Fury who was drawn just like Samuel Jackson
2. An alien race called the Chitauri
3. Black Widow and Hawkeye as a duo of black-ops spooks with their own shared history prior to any other supes showing up
4. Superheroes that kill people (and aliens), because of course they have to
5. SHIELD backing up the team of supes
6. A big boss bad guy getting pounded by the Hulk, taking a moment to protest a being of his lofty status getting pounded by someone as low-rent as the Hulk, and then getting pounded some more.
And, and... that's all I can think of at the moment. 50P? You're the only one I know has read Ultimates, rack your brain.
Also, the general vibe of pairing realism (but not Dark Knight gritty realism) with the fantastic to make the story amazing. Recommended reading for all.
Okay, some quibbles. Not gripes, because that sounds like I let something get in the way of liking this movie a million percent.
Q: When Fury's talking to The Council after Loki steals the Tesseract, they get in his face about using Phase 2 but he doesn't want to because it's not ready. Later we find out that Phase 2 was WMD's powered by the Tesseract. So why doesn't Fury just say "DUH, stupid Council, I can't use Phase 2 because the freaking battery for all that shit was just stolen!"
A: Okay, I have the answer for this one. Because it would ruin the reveal about the nature of Phase 2.
Q: What exactly changed between the first Hulk manifestation and the second, so that the gang went from "oh crap the Hulk is here" to "oh good the Hulk is here." It's not just that there were some proper bad guys to hit; they were standing right next to him in Tony's pad after the battle, and he even saved Iron Man from falling. Que pasa?
A: Not sure, but the punch he gave Thor goes a long way towards making that moot. Sure, he's still dangerous.
Also, maybe the first rampage was more affected by Loki's staff than was discussed. (I assumed that long, rolling camera shot of the staff while everyone bickered meant the staff was at least partially causing the bickering, plus Banner unconciously picks it up.)
Q: Why wasn't more attention given to Loki's staff, like, always? He drops it early in the final battle and it lays there for a while. With all the talk about shutting down the portal, even despite all the distractions, it seems like the staff would be the first thing anyone might try to use.
A: Again, story, pacing, excitement? I don't know. These are eensy quibbles.
More stuff I liked:
Hawkeye firing that exploding arrow at Loki because he knew he'd catch it, after faking us out with the earlier line about putting one through Loki's eye socket.
The sound effect of Thor's hammer flying back to him. There's one time his hand is just off camera, so we don't see it flying to him but we see it rocking into frame as he catches it. One of a hundred things that made me feel like Hemsworth/Whedon etc. had completely found their groove.
The flip from everyone bickering to everyone instantly teaming up to handle the fiasco on the helicarrier, especially Cap and Iron Man. No "it was the staff affecting us!" or "I thought you said I didn't know about sacrifice," just getting to it.
Use numbers!
Viz. your second point above, I think the difference is how Banner presents it. He basically goes from constantly warning them about what will happen when he changes into "the other guy" to actively showing up to do just that. The conversation he has with Stark is instrumental in changing his mind. I'm basing this on having 1) watched a downloaded camera version three times (since I can't really get enough of the movie) and 2) an interview with Ruffalo in which he talks about how Banner's at a point in his progression from the first two movies (which he's very familiar with), at which he's basically ready to do the Hulk thing (with some control) but kind of needs a situational push.
I thought phase 2 was the Avengers!
Was it? Did I get that wrong?
Sigh. I used numbers on my first comment and then didn't want to start over again with MORE numbers, and letters seemed silly...
Good point about Hulk.
I too was confused by The Hulk’s portrayal. When we first find Banner he seems to be hiding from the world because he doesn’t want anyone to make him “angry”. He even alludes to having destroyed Harlem the last time he became The Hulk, which suggests that he has no control over him. Later, when he transforms on the airship he appears to be out of control despite Banner’s knowledge that he is among friends. After falling out of the sky he even seems confused about what happened. However, by time we get to the alien invasion he informs us that he is “always angry” and seems to be able to transform in and out of The Hulk whenever he wishes.
I think the answer is almost in the movie, like one sentence away from being clear. (Maybe the deleted scenes will let us know.)
Stark is basically trying to talk Banner out of his shell, not so he'll Hulk out but so he'll stop hiding from everything. Tony wants that because Banner's a genius and could do a lot of cool stuff.
Meanwhile Banner is at a point where he can exert some control over the situation, as indicated by that last shot in Incredible Hulk that shows Edward Norton meditating and then opening his eyes and they're glowing green. All the times the cast members ask Banner "What's your secret?" I was expecting him to say "Yoga." The real answer, "I'm always angry," is so much better.
My current thinking is that the first Hulk transformation is a "bad" one because it's brought on by the nefarious influences of Loki's staff coupled with the stress of being in an airship that's exploding. The second transformation is done on purpose, with a very obvious target.
In The Ultimates, which I keep annoyingly bringing up, they use the Hulk but controlling him and getting him back in his bottle is a serious problem.
Captain America is depicted as not only super strong but also a tactical genius (which might not be exclusively in the Ultimate Universe, but I know almost nothing about the original Cap). One manifestation of that is his ability to direct the Hulk's fury in the right direction.
you left out the most hilarious thing about using samuel jackson to play nick fury, post Ultimates
at one point, all of the Ultimates are sitting in a break room talking about who would play them if someone made an Ultimates movie. from this exchange:
Hank Pym: Who do you think they could get to play you, Nick?
Fury: Why, Mister Samuel L. Jackson, of course. That's not even open to debate, Doctor Pym.
that's the only one they nailed. the others are
Captain America - Brad Pitt
(to which Cap responds, "Who's Brad Pitt?")
Iron Man -- Johnny Depp
(Fury sez, "Picture Ed Wood in an Iron Man suit.")
Hank Pym -- Matthew McConaughey
(fitting, actually. i don't like either one of them)
The Wasp -- Lucy Liu
(Janet opines, "because all asian people are basically identical right? Who'd be your backup choice, General? Bruce Lee?
to which Cap replies, "Who's Bruce Lee?")
Hulk -- Steve Buscemi
(after Woody Allen and "That creepy little kid from the Sixth Sense" are suggested)
I'm glad Avengers Banner was played as more likeable and less nerdy than Ultimate Banner.
agreed. ruffallo is excellent in this.
banner's "i'm always angry" line puts a different spin on the scene of natasha coming to fetch him. if he really is always angry, there's at least some part of him in that scene that's thinking, "if at some point i get the drop on this bitch, i am going to rip her in half."
it's less a similarity between the Ultimates and this movie, but there's also a shared difference in the point of view of Thor.
i don't know enough about the backstory of Thor in the regular Marvel universe, but i always imagined that he took no convincing to be on the Avengers.
the Ultimate Thor takes a lot of coercion, and even then, he'll turn his back on SHIELD at the drop of a hat when they do something awful.
Viz. Cap being a tactical genius: this was expressed very well in both Captain America: The First Avenger (in which he routinely out-thinks the generals, etc. in a very Patton-esque manner, coming up with aggressive incursions that work out perfectly) and in The Avengers, in which the (excellent) final resolution of all the Rogers/Stark bickering is when they all convene in front of Grand Central (right after that circular tracking shot that was in all the trailers, with Iron Man landing and Black Widow reloading her Glock), at which point Iron Man just says, "Captain?" indicating that Cap should immediately start giving them all orders, telling them each what to do (and Iron Man complies as readily as the others).
Not to perseverate on this Hulk thing but could it be as simple as this; Bruce Banner has learned how to control The Hulk to a certain
extent but if he is suprprised by some out of the blue event he can
still lose control and become the Hulk?
"i don't know enough about the backstory of Thor in the regular Marvel universe, but i always imagined that he took no convincing to be on the Avengers."
Not quite. Avengers #1 (1963, Stan Lee/Jack Kirby) starts with Loki scheming a way to fuck with Thor, who's on Earth in his "Dr. Donald Blake" identity. (Which never made any sense to me; is he the same guy or isn't he? It's lame; I'm glad they ditched it.) Loki perpetrates various clever schemes to get the Hulk to attack Thor, get Iron Man to attack them both etc. (which makes for plenty of great fights). Eventually they agree to form a group, and, while Thor isn't a total holdout, you can tell he's not really very interested in involving himself in "petty" human affairs; he takes some persuading before his natural (i.e. reverse-engineered Norse-God) instinct to help people comes out.
Come to think of it, the Iron Man characterization from that period is really boring.
Anyway the movie does a fantastic job of streamlining and updating all of this, as well as (as Octopunk keeps pointing out in his tiresome fashion) (kidding) apparently integrating a bunch of stuff from the Ultimate Marvel Universe.
No pun intended when I said that Dr. Donald Blake was "lame." (He really is lame!)
The Hulk thing is the same delicate balance it's always been, which is necessitated by the juxtaposition of:
1) the basic "Hulk" concept (Banner becomes Hulk when angry; Hulk has child-like sentience at best -- he can talk, but he behaves like a wild beast -- which makes for endless over-the-top action scenes); and
2) the idea that the Hulk functions as the protagonist of an ongoing comic series (and television series, etc.) in which he (the Hulk, not just Banner) is supposed to behave in a fashion that's at least arguably beneficial to mankind, "the good," virtue/justice etc. (otherwise it would just be Dr. Jekyl/Mr. Hyde or a werewolf story) (and no remarks about Alan Moore's League version of Mr. Hyde; that's not the same thing).
So the Hulk is dangerous (and amoral)enough for him to "Hulk smash" and fight tanks and piss off the army and destroy lots of property and function like Godzilla but also virtuous (and cogent) enough to be a titular hero and do things like join the Avengers. The character is conceived and written to walk the line between these two ideas, all the time. It's just not that complicated.
As much as I want to marry the Ultimate Marvel universe, I'm glad the movie version of Thor comes from the original, cheesier idea of him. More than the other characters, his backstory really sets the bar for how far they can push this fantasy and still make it feel real enough.
I think you got it, JPX. I'm sure in future appearances Banner will never treat the possibility of a Hulk event casually. "It's cool, baby. I'm wearing my stretch pants."
By the way, I love how he says "the other guy." And that quick, sad bit where he talks about his suicide attempt.
Yes, Octo. (Although as I pointed out above, I'm glad they got rid of "lame" Dr. Don Blake. He's "lame!" Get it?)
I agree about the suicide-attempt anecdote. I love how everyone immediately draws guns on him even though there's no point. My favorite Ruffalo/Whedon stuff is in that little hut at the beginning: first when he looks around and says, "You picked a spot on the edge of the city...that's good" and then when he says, "Are you here to kill me? Because that's not going to work out to well...for anybody."
I didn't mean to sound short-tempered in my second-to-most-recent-not-counting-this-one comment about the Hulk. It's just that, you know, it's the Hulk...didn't we grow up with this shit? Dude turns into the Hulk. I've never had any trouble conceptualizing it, ever.
Clap. Clap. Clap.
Okay, I shouldn't make fun after you apologize.* You do sound overly impatient in the face of a valid question. I can't say I really grew up with the Hulk because I rarely watched the TV show and even more rarely read Marvel comics.
And here I thought you were echoing my impatience.
I mean, seriously now; am I missing something? It's not confusing, in the movie or anywhere else. JPX needs to see it again or something.
* But you reminded me of this time I was talking to Landshark (then my stepbrother for about a year) and realized I'd forgotten his middle name. And with 13-year-old seriousness he responded "Hm. That's interesting. I've never had any trouble remembering that."
I was a little too flummoxed to respond properly, but I was thinking "Oh, you can remember your own name? Good for you."
It's not on the same level, but "conceptualizing the Hulk" is a funny lifetime achievement.
And, more to the point, doesn't completely answer the question at hand for everybody.
It is confusing in the movie. It's a concern of mine, as I mentioned in my second comment. I can think of four people who have raised this question. I think your answer is pretty good, but I don't understand your tone.
It's confusing if you aren't listening to the Banner/Stark conversations or the Banner/Romanov conversations (especially the Banner/Stark ones). I don't understand my tone either; maybe it's that the script goes out of its way to address exactly this built-in dilemma in the premise and we've covered this and yet people are still puzzled.
I mean, it's all there in the gratuitous Thor punch. Dude is dangerous, but on "our side."
I guess I'm focusing in the wrong thing. "I'm always angry" is confusing. Sorry everyone. I had to think it through. I forgot that part.
Cool. Best of all, I think the answer is on this page already. Moving on...
Jordan hit one of my favorite beats when he mentions Tony saying "Captain?" After the endless "will they or won't they" deliberations in both Green Lantern and John Carter I love that The Avengers hop right to the team forming. Sure, they talk about it, but in no way too much.
(I'm also glad you mentioned it because I forgot about it. I'm planning to drive for two hours so I can take Julie's mom to see The Avengers later this week, which is an excellent reason to see it again. Woo!)
Also, it's a testament to my lack of Marvel knowledge that I didn't even know Thor's lame secret identity until this "Donald Blake" fellow shows up in Age of Apocalypse (for anyone who's still reading, that was when someone goes back in time and kills Professor X and the present is completely changed in ALL the Marvel titles. So there is a Donald Blake and he's this heroic doctor with no powers. I think.).
Anyway, I was all "who is this guy with the cane?"
I've also been getting excited today about how this is the first really successful franchise crossover movie. I mean, what are the others? All those Frankenstein Meets Dracula flicks and more recent ones with a "Vs." in the middle? Freddy Vs. Jason is the best of them, and still widely scorned in concept. Avengers is not only accepted but it's fast becoming the most popular movie ever and it joins not two but four separate movie franchises.
(How long until it beats Avatar? That's gonna happen, right?)
It only works if it's premeditated (as this was).
On that note, the comparison I keep thinking of is Star Trek Generations. The thrill of Kirk and Picard together was exactly the same thing as we're seeing here (with the same degree of tactical planning from two ends to make it work).
Or Bugs Bunny and Mickey mouse onscreen together in Roger Rabbit, wherein it was contractually dictated that they have the same number of lines as each other and be onscreen exactly the same amount of time...just as it was contracted that Steve McQueen and Paul Newman not only have the first-ever "diagonal billing" (McQueen leftmost; Newman higher on the screen) to make sure that nobody could possibly conclude that either one was the "star" more than the other.
And the rest of Roger Rabbit, too. (My favorite example is the very end: Porky Pig comes up to the camera, says, "That's all folks!" triggering the closing iris, and then Tinkerbell comes in and zaps the iris with "Disney dust" just as it closes.)
How about Thor using the Chrysler Building as a weapon? Woo hoo!
"Stop Using the Chrysler Building as a Weapon"
The schwarma thing was also great because it's so reminiscent of great Kirby/Lee stuff from the 'sixties, wherein Thor etc. would just walk around dressed like that, and ordinary citizens would be all, "Hey, it's Thor!" (With cops taking off their caps to scratch their heads and say "Begorrah!" while young women with ironed hair and decal eyelashes would go, "He's so dreamy!"
Of course a New York waitress would just take Thor's order. "What can I get you?"
This thread's been frozen at "37 comments" and I keep hearing Michael Palin's voice from Holy Grail saying "I'm thirty-seven! I'm not 'old'!"
Watching a slightly better pirated-cam version of Avengers again. I like this movie so much that I've already got it "pinned" to the memory of summer 2012 the way that summer '88 means Die Hard and summer 1981 means Raiders.
I just can't get enough of Agent Hill standing around the periphery of that meeting table, keeping a respectful distance. She makes me feel like a teenager again...the kind of girl who's in your class or office who you keep sneaking glances at, because her prettiness is like your own private secret.
When Coulson dies, they have their discussion around that table (with yummy Agent Hill keeping a respectful distance, but listening) and Fury says his great line about how Coulson believed in heroes and "it's an old-fashioned notion." It's the only time in the movie that Tony Stark has nothing to say...he just stands up and leaves.
Then the next scene is Stark and Rogers bickering and some great RDJ acting where he figures out that the target is New York. We've been waiting for this moment the whole movie, and the next cut takes you straight to the rooftop of the Stark building -- and our first real look at the movie's pride and joy: the enormous 12-block-square digital model of midtown that's the setting for the entire fourth act. (You see it one other time -- the nighttime version -- out the window of Stark's penthouse during the Pepper Potts scene, but I don't think that's the entire model; just the panoramic "top-of-the-MetLife-building" mosaic they made.)
It occurred to me that Iron Man's Mark VII armor has one very important safety tip: Stark better make fucking sure he puts the right bracelet on his right wrist and the left bracelet on his left wrist (and not vice versa) or the armor torpedo is going to try to put the armor onto him backwards, which is really not going to work out well.
Ha hahahah haha ha ha!!!
Watching the movie yet again (God help me).
There's absolutely no question that the "secret sauce" of Whedon's approach and the success of the project is the actors. It's not just that each of them has already done the work of establishing characters in other movies (each of which is designed for that purpose); even if you haven't seen those movies, the whole thing totally works because (from a method-acting standpoint, but also from an audience standpoint) everybody knows it's there; you get on some level that Captain America makes sense, because there was a whole Hollywood blockbuster that everybody liked, so that no only does Chris Evans know how to play the part, but all the rough edges of the characterization and the concept have been worked out already, and the actors (and the audience) benefit accordingly.
They bring their special effects and costumes with them from those other movies (which is a lot of work for a lot of other people...hundreds of people) but, more important, they bring their fully-worked-out characterizations. It's why you can see them all, scene by scene, working incredibly hard, firing on all cylinders, selling the premise(s) over and over again. It absolutely dries out the movie and removes any possible trace of self-consciousness or camp, while allowing the story to (nevertheless) be witty, humorous, fleet-footed and snappy. They're all incredibly serious about it, scene by scene, without being remotely ponderous, pretentious or dull. Amazing.
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