Saturday, December 12, 2009

New Post



"You should do what I do and write a whole new post," Octopunk said (in response to my response to his voluminous post below). So I figured he had a point. Here's my response again:

1) I wish my Patton Oswald post had "dominated the blog over the weekend." It only got three comments (and only one of those comments was actually about the posted clip itself); I assumed that everyone missed it.

2) The Emperor's lightning sound was, I believe, a reference to Twin Peaks Fire Walk With Me.

3) I saw Lynch's Dune before I read the book, actually. So I kind of dug it. I had nothing to compare it to, so all I got from the movie was that it was an attempt at a genuinely different approach to epic sci-fi. Later (Junior Year of college, actually) I read the book and realized how badly they'd screwed it up. It was kind of like all those idiots who admired Francis Coppola's Dracula ("He added a sexual subtext...and a commentary on Victorian mores! Brilliant!" Jordan: "He didn't 'add' anything, you idiots") but with me, Jordan, as the idiot.

4) If I don't ignore your detours through Gibson and Phillip K. Dick, I'll never finish this comment!

5) You've hit on the basic conundrum of written sci-fi. A movie shows you several ideas at the same time, but a novel is only one sentence (and one word) at a time. (J.J. Abrams on the Star Trek commentary track, during the shot of Kirk and Bones on the Starfleet Campus discussing the upcoming Kobayashi Maru test: "I wanted to start with an establishing shot that was already a genuine story shot, with action and dialogue." Right, and he did it, but just try that in written prose! You can't.) So the trick of making a locale visible to the reader without interrupting the action is a constant struggle for the fiction writer (and I've got the empty Tylenol bottles to prove it). The problem is compounded in sci-fi, where nothing is taken for granted and every object could be some weird-o version that the reader can't picture properly unless the writer takes a sentence or two to clue you in. I like the way Larry Niven does it, personally. David Gerrold actually collaborated with Niven on a couple of books; they have (I think) similar approaches (at least based on your example). Ultimately, as a writer, I find the whole thing so tiresome that I've completely back-burnered any desire to try my hand at prose-based sci-fi. (Prose-based horror is much more approachable, and I'll be hitting the bookstore shelves with that shit in the first week of July.)

6) Above, I made it sound like the cinematic approach (discovering the environmental details around the edges of the story) is some kind of basic, obvious trick. But it's actually not, as any connoisseur of older sci-fi movies can tell you. It took Kubrick and Lucas to create that approach, where the story is the main focus and the gizmos and vehicles and floating platforms and crazy rooms are just there unremarked upon. David Gerrold discusses this in one of his Star Trek books, talking about how 1930s-1950s sci-fi was so damn "talky," with every machine being explained verbally and with ridiculously elaborate establishing shots conveying everything to you in the most laborious possible way. Lucas gets more credit than Kubrick for fixing this, because Lucas made it work in a colloquial action-adventure setting (rather than Kubrick's magisterially-paced cerebral sci-fi movie); all the stuff is just there, and the characters don't remark upon it at all.

7) Despite all this, I find myself reading less and less sci-fi, and losing my patience with older sci-fi movies more and more often. I have trouble sitting through the stuff when the visuals are so damn primitive, and I have trouble reading the newer stuff because of the cloying, overly-clever stylistic bullshit that takes the place of the traditional turgidness of older "classic" sci-fi. I'll probably change my mind, later. My friend Barney is watching first-season Star Trek and I repeated my claim that it's basically like Shakespeare (e.g. basically literary): the sets and props and effects and production values are so miserable that the entire story is carried by the writing and the acting. (Basically the opposite of Revenge of the Sith.)

8) Another interesting development in literary vs. cinematic sci-fi: Basically, everything used to follow what I think of as "Jordan's Rule" (and I will continue to think of it this way until it's demonstrated that somebody else said it): On paper, sci-fi is infinitely scaleable with no costs. In other words, a single giant robot destroying a house can become a single giant robot destroying a village or a group of giant robots destroying a city, or a thousand spaceships destroying an entire planet, with absolutely no cost overrun. The guy typing the book didn't have to spend another dime, and neither did the publisher. (It didn't cost me anything in terms of time, money or effort to escalate the scenario in my preceding example.) But with movies, it's completely different: just two people talking in a room in a sci-fi movie automatically costs five times as much as the same thing happening in a non-sci-fi movie. What are they wearing? What's the room look like? Is there a window showing the city? Etc. etc. etc. and already we've spent $600,000. This is the main reason cinematic sci-fi is so much more juvenile, by definition, than its written counterpart: youv'e got to pay for it, which means you need a huge audience to generate the box office to offset the costs. A sci-fi novel costs the same as a regular novel to publish, but once you film it, you're spending a fortune and if you can't draw in the kids, you lose. "Jordan's Law."

But what's amazing is that this is actually changing, thanks to advancing movie technology. I'm amazed at the sheer scale of what's presented in modern sci-fi movies (especially the expensive ones). For example, think about Star Trek (ironic example, given that they started with gypsum board sets in the '60s): Think through the movie. Not just the drill, but the aforementioned Starfleet Academy; that enormous Vulcan temple; the collapsing Vulcan landscape; the battle that destroys ten (!) starships completely; and of course Nero's ship. Any single one of these spectacles would be enough for an entire 70s or 80s sci-fi movie. It's such a big deal! But these days, it's approaching the freedom of the written word! "Ten thousand orcs"? Done. "Vulcan temple the size of a mountain, and it collapses?" Done. etc. etc. This means that we actually can have "boutique" cerebral space-movie projects like Soderbergh's Solaris which are totally adult and uncompromising, like good sci-fi novels, and yet are as well-made as any mainstream sci-fi and don't bankrupt the fucking studio if they flop (or don't do as well as Spider-Man). I think that's a really good development...Hollywood has actually found a way to break "Jordan's Law." And now I'll stop before I start getting depressed at the thought of how much I just wrote vs. how few people will read it.

14 comments:

Octopunk said...

No, I meant another new post.

Anyway, I'll just follow through by moving my next chunk of discussion up to the top:

1)I thought it dominated because it was at the top of the blog all weekend, but anyone who didn't listen to it should check it out.

2)Mmmm.

3)That's pretty funny, actually. I'm glad reading the book made you realize the scope of the cataclysm.

It will be interesting to reread Dune and see how it holds up to my "details details" test. As a completely different world, with no connection to our present (except as the distant, never-mentioned past), it has a different challenge to meet. I remember it meeting the challenge well, but we'll see.

More later.

Octopunk said...

Here's more!

4) My Philip K. Dick detour, which was more of a detour, is summed up as follows: He was a hack with a handful of interesting ideas and a number of inferior ones, he was not very good at the thing he's famous for, and his success had a lot to do with being positioned to press the right cultural buttons, most of those buttons having been installed by The Counter Culture. All three things are also true of Ralph Bakshi.

My Gibson point was closer to my general point about SF prose, but actually is a little too specific. Detailed backgrounds are one way to ground a story that lacks grounding, but I feel like the detached vertigo I experience reading a lot of classic sci-fi is a symptom of a larger problem.

Again, more later, because the boy just woke up from his nap.

Octopunk said...

5) Not much else I can add here. "The trick of making a locale visible to the reader without interrupting the action is a constant struggle for the fiction writer (and I've got the empty Tylenol bottles to prove it)." covers it rather nicely.

The "larger problem" I discuss above is an extension of my whole "background details" gripe. In addition to setting, various rules of human interaction and behavior get messed with because the SF author is busy laying down something else that is more important to the place he's coming from. Or because the writer just isn't good at that part, it's hard to say.

I don't think it's true that every SF text has to suffer in some areas while being strong in others, but I think it turns out that way a lot.

Octopunk said...

6) My question here is, when did sci-fi become so minimalist? Gerrold describes plain sets with one machine that requires a lot of exposition, but the notion of a big empty room with a single bulwark of SCIENCE in the middle seems as old as sci-fi movies themselves. I'm thinking of the saucer interior in The Day the Earth Still, for instance. It seems to me the visions of the future in the earlier 20th century allowed for more clutter. Is it the way sci-fi felt like it needed to be in the 50's, or was it just easier on the production designers?

To partially answer my own question, I think regardless of how far back the minimalism goes, science fiction was always clean, even the stuff from the twenties and thirties. And that's something Lucas gets full credit for changing. And that change is one of the reasons Star Wars just feels so damn right.

Jordan said...

Interesting but let's not muddy the waters and confuse movie production design with movie storytelling. Fantastic Voyage is a movie with reasonably modern production design, but every fucking gizmo and technique and procedure and vehicle gets the full "lecture hall" treatment. Lucas put the dirt in, which was revolutionary, but in terms of our larger point, he was doing the same thing as Kubrick (whose environments are complex but as clean as they come). (I realize you don't literally mean "clean," but I'm taking that into account.) But in both Star Wars and 2001, the characters just get on with what they're doing, without burdening themselves with explaining anything. (Okay, Kubrick cuts to the door that says "DANGER EXPLOSIVE BOLTS," but Lucas cuts to the controls and the readout of the Death Star force field generator.)

Jordan said...

Larry Niven's writing style can be annoying (and many people can't read him at all), but I think he's very good at conveying environments and locales and details. It's a separate skill from "good writing" in the sense of stylishness or adroitness in conveying dialogue or characterization (or the dozens of other ways writing can be good).

In pretty much every Niven novel or story pre-1985 (which is when he goes completely to seed) it's possible to visualize all of it nearly photographically, without any noticeable slowdowns in the action. It obviously helps that Niven's stuff is so logical and precise, and is always based on the hardest of hard sci-fi concepts. It's true that the dialogue suffers from "Clarke-itis" sometimes, in which the characters just discuss the major themes and characterization points (like in modern Woody Allen movies), but since the characters are frequently computers or aliens, you don't mind. Ringworld has four main characters who dominate nearly all of the novel -- you rarely see anyone else -- and their traits are, in many ways, the main playing field for the novel's ideas and concepts (since they represent three races whose interaction has determined most of the course of Niven's future history). The Ringworld itself is a triumph of description, since everybody can picture it so clearly, not just in the abstract, but while they're crashing on it, crossing it, climbing its mountains, figuring out how to escape it etc.

Octopunk said...

No, I do mean literally clean.

I was thinking about the Earth Stood Still saucer vs. the pulp cover paintings of future cities and the like; they'd be cluttered in a way the 1950's visions weren't, but they wouldn't ever be dirty. Because it's all about the new.

I can't really remember, but I think maybe the urban underworld of Metropolis was dirt free, as well. That may be more production design than design, however.

Octopunk said...

Wait there's more... I guess since it's about the new, then it's clean, sooo.... there isn't much stuff in the room because that's clean... and cheap for the movie or show's budget... and I'm done.

Jordan said...

Another good example of Niven's descriptive skills is his Smoke Ring Duology (The Integral Trees/The Smoke Ring) from the mid-1980s: two novels that take place in a world that's a totally zero-g environment, with sky in every direction. (It's an ecosystem that's evolved in a gas torus orbiting a neutron star, which is itself one component of a binary system, with the other star being the yellow dwarf that provides sunlight to the gas torus.) The human inhabitants are descendants of Earth explorers who mutinied against the sentient computer controlling their spacecraft (2001-style) and colonized the gas torus (the "smoke ring") five hundred years ago; they've evolved for the zero-g environment, becoming much taller and slimmer. (I think Mr. Cameron may have read this stuff.) Niven describes an entire ecology evolved for zero-g, including "ponds" that are silver spheres of water floating around and trees that have their tufts at both ends. The humans have fallen into a stone-age tribal culture, but bits and pieces of leftover starship technology are dotted around, making things interesting: every tribe has a "Scientist" who's the expert on "Science" left over by the spacefarers, and they guard their artifacts (like the PC Tablet-style "reading screens" that they alone know how to use.) The people haven't become idiot savages worshiping machines or anything Star Trek-like: they're totally intelligent nomadic tribes without dumb superstitions. And, meanwhile, the ship is still in orbit, and the evil computer they mutinied against 500 years ago is still patiently watching and waiting, peering into the Smoke Ring and trying to make contact again, to lure them back under his control. It's a fantastic story...and I bring it up as an example of something that would seem to be impossible to get across on a printed page, but Niven does it easily, and the thing is terse and moves very fast.

Jordan said...

Take a look at Michael Whelan's wraparound cover paintings for The Smoke Ring and The Integral Trees.

Jordan said...

I re-emphasize that we've got to be careful not to get sidetracked into a "design/production design" discussion; the point is supposed to be written vs. filmed sci-fi.

Anonymous said...

[url=http://www.officialflo.com/profiles/blogs/headache-back-of-head]Headache back of head[/url]
pounding headache in back of head banged head headache 2 weeks headache at the top of head
http://www.officialflo.com/profiles/blogs/headache-back-of-head

Anonymous said...

[url=http://community.gazzetta.gr/profiles/blogs/consolidate-credit-cards ]loans to consolidate credit cards [/url]consolidate credit cards debt consolidate credit cards loan consolidate all credit cards to one
[url=http://www.officialflo.com/profiles/blogs/consolidate-credit-cards ]consolidate debt get credit cards loans [/url]consolidate student loans and credit cards consolidate student loan and credit cards gas cards consolidate credit card debt
[url=http://community.bonniehunt.com/profiles/blogs/consolidate-credit-cards ]consolidate high interest credit cards [/url]1766 consolidate credit cards debt 2545 consolidate credit cards $8000 consolidate credit cards low prices

Anonymous said...

hi all
http://www.tor.com/community/users/belgdunandprac1975
http://www.tor.com/community/users/veticmaima1983
http://www.tor.com/community/users/wfinenducus1980
http://www.tor.com/community/users/jingdrudmicle1978
http://www.tor.com/community/users/butnisbporteo1988

Salem's Lot 1979 and Salem's Lot 2024

Happy Halloween everybody! Julie's working late and the boy doesn't have school tomorrow so he's heading to one of those crazy f...